I just watched Jesus Camp and one word sticks out for me: shame.
A lot of what was said I would agree with at some level, but for all the shame that was involved. I saw that shame in these children's tears. They internalized all the sin they were told was in them and in the world, and the it seems like it was that burden that caused the intense emotions that expressed itself as tears. They cried because they had been named as evil, and then told that it is their responsibility to tell everyone else they are evil. Shame is naturally evangelistic, and so it's not much of a stretch for these kids to easily become evangelists of this bastardized "gospel" of shame. When a person is consumed with shame, they cannot love, all they can do is shame others.
Speaking of shame, I don't want to vilify the specific people who were portrayed in this movie. Instead, I would like to ask broader questions about what should be taught to children, both in the church and in the home. Or, perhaps more foundationally, how is your theology different than that which was portrayed in the film (or is it?) and why? And what part do you think shame plays in fundamentalism as a whole?
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Cabe, I haven't seen Jesus Camp because, from what I read about it, it looked like a terrifying depiction of Christians and would just make me mad. But I did want to post about your question about what should be taught to children (a little off the shame topic). I think it is an incredibly interesting discussion. I didn't grow up as a Christian so I have no examples to follow - I have so many questions about raising my own kids as Christians. I've met some Christians who even think you shouldn't teach your kids that Jesus is the Way because they need to make their own decision (I disagree with this). But as an example, a 35 year old friend told me the other day that up until she was in college (but it started when she was very young) whenever she would be alone and it got quiet, she would run outside and make sure the Second Coming hadn't happened without her. Hello!! She totally got stuck on that fear from when she was taught as a kid that it will happen "in a twinkling of an eye" and she couldn't get past everyone being taken away and her being left on Earth. Another friend remembers not being able to sleep for nights because she was afraid of living for eternity (that's so long I'll get bored! she said). So it's things like that... kids can interpret and hold onto little things that distort God and their faith. It made me glad I became a Christian in High School, honestly! Not that I didn't distort God, but I did understand Christianity better than a child would (logically I mean). What does anyone else think about this? Do you think it's worth it to teach kids about all this stuff when they're young? Maybe we should just teach them about God's love and save the details for a more mature mind?? I don't know.
I haven't watched it yet because I know it would hit too close to home for me. I grew up in a church that is pretty much like what is depicted in the documentory. It would just make me mad. Not at the people making the film but at the way some churches emotionally manipulate people. One thing that gets me is where is the difference of the "spirit moving" or the speaker emotionally driving people to feel something? The amount of people crying shouldn't be the determination of a good meeting.
Mack and Sam - both really intriguing points - I'll get in on this issue, soon. Good post, Cabe - and what's this about Drew leaving staff?
Though shame is a very real and natural reaction to sin, perhaps what we should predominantly be teaching young children and young believers about is grace. God calls us to live under His saving grace rather than be consumed by the shame of our sinful flesh. What bothers me the most about encouraging believers to reinforce the shame and guilt of their sin is one, shame is not equatable to repentance, and two, we're simply playing into the hands of the enemy who would rather us surrender ourselves as a needy and wrecked person without hope, and, therefore, might as well sin at will. The gospel is a message of love and hope via grace, not condemnation. Why have we turned the Christian life into one that neglects God's goodness, forgiveness, and grace? And how are we glorifying Him when we're rejecting grace and forgiveness and embracing pity and dead end frustration? Shame's place in the Christian life should be as simple and only as simple as acknowledging we're saints who sometimes sin but that we are, indeed, saints because we have a God who graciously forgives because He loves the sinner. I'll confess I wouldn't know where to begin in attempting to explain the depth of a Holy God's grace to a seven year old...but I'll wager that the most impractical attempt at doing so does more to accurately illuminate God's love and majesty to that seven year old than convincing them they're a damned mess.
Well played Bmart
Interesting insights, everyone.
One way I think you can teach grace to a seven year old is by modeling it. I think that oftentimes a person's views of God comes from their views of their parents. I think parents should attempt a close approximation to the grace and justice of God.
So then what place does sin have in our theology, and how much emphasis should be placed on it?
Cabe, I'm watching the film tomorrow when I get it in the mail. As far as teaching a child about theology, go ahead and talk to them about sin. It's a good way for them to grasp why they are being punished (assuming you punish). Also, this is a good way to show an example of grace. I agree, parents should be examples for their children to emulate. God and Christianity are huge mysteries to children, so a tangible parent who leads by example is a great thing to have. Yet, even with this, Christ says in Luke, that anyone who does not have faith like a child will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Yes, children will overreact like those examples from mackattack, but all children have huge imaginations. Life is coming at them incredibly fast. So, the idea of eternal life can sound boring. Or, the idea that they might miss out on the rapture can sound devastating. But, at the same time, these over active imaginings can easily be answered by a parent who teaches the child about faith, rather than sending them off to Sunday school and hoping they get sound doctrine. A parent should be involved in every aspect of the child's life, including religion. I thought the idea of eternal life would be boring as well, but my dad instilled the idea into me of heaven being a joyous place without worries or even bad things happening. Get involved in your kid's life, and they will come to you for answers. Be a spiritual mentor in their life.
I'm really not against teaching a kid about sin, but whatever horribly twisted things a person thinks about sin will come through to the kid, regardless of how biblical sounding your words might be. This is a really important question when approaching kids: what is sin, and what place does it really have in our everyday life? I feel like some good answers have been given in this thread, but perhaps we should continue to wrestle with these ideas and how they intersect with other ideologies. What is the difference between my ideas about sin and those of the Christian leaders in that movie? In Jesus Camp it seems like sin has the final word, or if there is grace it works in a way that doesn't seem like grace to me.
What does it mean for me to be a part of the same kingdom that these people are a part of? What responsibility do I have to them and to that kingdom in light of this issue?
I'd be really interested in what you think about the movie, the Andude.
Hey guys,
I watched Jesus Camp a couple months ago and had mixed impressions. At it's conclusion I felt like the film would be viewed very differently from a Christian and non-Christian perspective.
The setting of the movie was Lee Summit, Missouri, a suburb of Kansas City. I grew up in Springfield, Missouri attending Christian camps each summer, so this film hit closer to home for me than it would for most Christians.
While I felt like the film was not overly biased, certain scenes lead the viewer to take things out of context; especially the scene where the kids are praying for the President. It was depicted as if they were worshiping George Bush.
That being said, I think the film did bring to light the dangers of wrapping Christianity in polarized political issues and then serving it to children. Passion for Christ is good, but sometimes we act as if we have a clear understanding of God's mysterious ways.
It was interesting to see the kids visit Ted Haggard's church in CO. The film was released before the scandal surrounding him broke. I think that just highlights how easy it is to repress our own sins and point at others. (Matt 7:5)
Cabe brings some great thoughts about shame and how this should be taught to kids. While I believe parents should introduce children to Christ, they need to also have faith that God will work in kid’s lives without us trying to control His work.
We should share our faith when people ask, we should set examples, but should we try to shame people into believing something? What does it mean when someone asks you, "Was church good" and say "yes" or "no"? What is the basis for your answer?
Emotions are fickle, Christ is eternal.
well spoken, Seanrad - and long time, no see - hope all is well.
Brian 'I can't log onto this website under B Mart anymore and don't know why' Martin
So, I finally watched "Jesus Camp." I'd say the biggest thing that came to my mind is disappointment. And not in the people portrayed, rather, in the way they were portrayed by the filmmakers. Here you have a group of Pentacostals who are doing what Pentacostals do. I mean, it's pretty clear that this is near brain-washing stuff. But, it's not that bad.
The obvious comparison the movie is trying to make, and somewhat successfully, is that these people are growing up their children in "God's Army," trying to "take back America for Christ," similar to the way certain sects of Islam grows up their children to handle guns and cope with suicide bombings. Yet, the worst thing these kids do is slightly judge other people. Yeah, it sucks to see all Christianity portrayed this way, but they're not killing people.
This brings me to another point. These are not all evangelicals, which the movie tries to portray. It makes the "religious right" out to be this enemy lurking in our own neighborhoods, when these are simply Pentacostals. But, this is just like other videos that try to portray all of Islam to be practicing Jihad. There are different denominations of Islam, just like Christianity.
I thought the funniest part of the movie was when the obviously overweight woman was talking to the kids about how there are people out there who just eat and get fat and never fast. Yet, like I said, she's heavyset. Her arms are jiggling as she proclaims this. It's pretty funny.
I mean, I'm from Dallas. Jesus Camps are normal there. I understand this way of thinking. I don't like it. I don't like megachurches. My dad has always said one of the biggest problems today's churches have is that they keep paving the parking lots, rather than new foundations.
But this movie is not accurate. Sure it's a little scary to see evangelicals portrayed in this very skewed light. I mean, these people deny the existence of global warming and say that science has never proven anything. They are crazy. Plus, the kid has a rat tail. Crazy. So, just like with any documentary, it needs to be taken with a grain of salt. It's just like news. It usually finds a skewed, one-sided angle and goes with it.
First of all, your point about the kid with the rat tail is very true. That is crazy. Also it's really important to remember that not all evangelicals are fundamentalists, because we're not. And we definitely need to keep in mind the bias that this movie has in the ways it portrays things. But we also need to keep in mind that these people exist, and they have power and a voice in our political system and in our churches, while they at the same time claim the same God that we claim. So which side is God on? Does God want kids to not be taught evolution or global warming in schools? Does God want kids to be taught to carry the weight of their sin and the sins of our society? And how am I to be in the world knowing that these people exist, and knowing that many people's view of the God that I worship is affected by these fundamentalists? And how am I to be in the Church at large as I (metaphorically) take communion with these people at God's table?
It is important to note that they don't directly kill people. But they do have a very strong voice in the political arena and thus are in a position to potentially oppress other people, and they are also in political cahoots with certain individuals who may have started a certain middle eastern war that I find somewhat unnecessary. So indirectly, I might contend that they do kill people.
Very appropriate comparison to Islam. It's really ignorant to think that all Christians are fundamentalists, but how are we (who claim to be different) to love the world when we will often be associated with that ideology because of the God that we claim, because frankly fundamentalists have a louder voice than we do?
Yeah, I see your concerns. This is the only voice to come out of a Christian mouth in a documentary in a while. And recently, with the Ted Haggard scandal, it doesn't help our case. We realize that all evangelicals are not fundamentalists, but not all people do. So, how do we make that distinction public without condemning those brethren sitting next to us? Is what they are doing damnable? I don't think so, but I do think they are getting close. Certainly, putting that much weight of sin on the children's shoulders is wrong. It takes away from the significance of Christ's sacrifice and freeness of His gift, putting a price on it. I, personally, don't have a problem with global warming or evolution. I don't think that's a determinate of salvation. So, yeah, I'm not sure if I answered your question, or just brought it back around to the same question: How do we act with these type of people in the church?
“Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
“Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me,but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin,* it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.”
(Matthew 18:4-6 ESV)
I'm not damning them to hell (not really my job), but just pointing out that this is serious stuff. I don't even know what a millstone is (isn't that a brand of coffee?), but it seems pretty graphic.
I haven't answered your questions either. They are all probably best hashed out in a conversation rather than a blog.
I look forward to that possible future conversation. For now, I am off to Greece for 3 weeks. Your parents should be expecting a suppport letter in the mail from me.
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